Q: "How do you compare yourselves with the Hellene's or Hellenion groups?

01/18/2012

Q: "How do you compare yourselves with the Hellene's or Hellenion groups? You both seem to do the Greek thing." S.N.

A: Rational Hedonism is an atheistic religion while Hellenion is considered “pagan” (which originally just meant the “country folk outside the cities who refused to drop their traditional gods for the newest religion at the time -Christianity ... even though mere years earlier the Romans were killing those new Christians by the arena-full). R.H. has nothing against groups such asHellenion, and probably have much in common.

Rational Hedonism's roots are deeply entrenched in ancient Hellas, or as you put it, “the Greek thing” as far back as 460 B.C.E. with Democritus. The best known rational hedonist, Epicurus, taught that even if there was a god or gods, he/she/they were made from the same stuff as the stars, the earth, and us – atoms – and not involved in the lives of humans.

R.H. has kept the cultural flavor of it's intellectual and cultural homeland as it spread it's philosophy from the Hellenics (Greeks) to the Romans who carried it to early Europe and who in turn transplanted it to the new cities at the beginning of the U.S., such as retaining traditional foods, music, and our children still perform skits based on the culture of Aesop's fables and the mythical adventures of the Greek gods.

Rational Hedonists have moved forward over the centuries without fear of repercussion by jealous, vengeful, or guilt-slinging god(s). We may own statues or art representing the Hellenic gods for the traits and qualities we relate or admire in them, but in no way do we worship them. R.H. does not seek to revive the ancient Hellenist empire, it has evolved and adapted into the modern age, but the heritage and philosophical roots are still firmly entrenched, vibrant and alive.

While some people are a bit relieved we do not advocate the worship of the Hellenic/Greek gods, they are still uncomfortable we don't believe in their god either. But to that we simply suggest:

“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” Stephen F. Roberts

Comments

Umakant link

02/02/2012 5:24am

I am not comfortable with the term "yourselves" in the question "How do you compare yourselves...". The term yourselves indicates a group of people, whereas rational hedonism is a concept. The concept is not represented by you nor the group is confined by any specific number of people. it will not be right to identify a concept with a group of people.
Let me clarify more. Tomorrow you may not believe in rational hedonism - so you may not remain as a rational hedonist. But the concept will remain. The group of rational hedonists include all those people who believe in this theory even without your knowledge. Similarly, the concept will remain even if nobody believes in this theory.

S. Nelson

02/12/2012 3:41pm

I used the term, "yourselves" purposely. By your own words, "yourselves" does "indicate a group of people" I was indeed addressing those people who specifically adhere to Rational Hedonism as a religion, not merely "rational hedonism" as the philosophical concept.

I would imagine that in India, you've never been exposed to those who actively practice Rational Hedonism, if you had, you would have understood my question in context.

Rational Hedonists are atheists but participate in practices with a strong Greek flavor adapted for the modern world, live a self-indulgent lifestyle, yet follow certain ethics. I know. I've attended two Rational Hedonist events; one a ceremony which included delicious grilled lamb and fish combined with a loosely interpreted "Olympic" competition and Greek theater spoof. The "worship" was in the fun, laughter and enjoying the pleasures of life with others of like mind. The other was a "coming of age" ceremony for a teen.

So I've seen how the Rational Hedonists use the Greek roots culturally, as a gelling agent and common experience that brings together people of all interests, from all walks of life with absolutely nothing else in common except they define themselves as Rational Hedonists.

Groups such as Hellion actually believe in reviving worship of the Greek gods. In that sense, to me, they are more related to Wiccans. That was why I asked my original question here, for clarification.

The pairing of the two words, "rational hedonism" have been used discussing philosophical concepts and tossed about for centuries. To me, the words, "rational hedonism" are used like the conceptual term "satanism" was before 1966 when Anton LaVey took that word (which had been out there at least since the church came into existence), and made it into a religion. He was the one who took all the floaty, obscure, fearful concepts the churches were afraid of and hated; embraced it, defined it, put it down in writing and made it something. To me, Satanists (the official Church of Satan ones) are rational hedonists, but Rational Hedonists may not be Satanists.

By the way, I'm neither a Rational Hedonist nor a Satanist, I consider myself more of an Atheistic Humanist, but I often find both are largely cerebral, scholarly, aloof and pompous, and sometimes give off the attitude, "We're not THOSE guys (the religious), We're the OTHER guys" - and seem to let that define us. I have seen how, even though they are atheists- to them-, Rational Hedonism is a religion -- it is a nice mix of the things atheism and humanism standing alone miss out on.

Delilah! link

02/13/2012 7:17pm

Thank you Umakant and especially S.N. for personally responding to U's comment about your comment!

"I am not comfortable with the term "yourselves" in the question "How do you compare yourselves...". The term yourselves indicates a group of people,..."

There is not much I can do if you are not "comfortable" with the term, "yourselves". The word is used correctly. The reality is there are a group of people who classify themselves as Rational Hedonists and practice that lifestyle.

“ ...rational hedonism is a concept. The concept is not represented by you nor the group is confined by any specific number of people. it will not be right to identify a concept with a group of people."

Yes, it is a philosophical concept that goes back further than the church. Hedonism, later upgraded to rational hedonism, happiness... are all concepts that have been debated by great minds throughout the centuries.

This is a website by Rational Hedonists, I believe that is enough reason to “represent” this religion, and as it evolves you may learn there is a difference from university philosophical discussions of hedonism and actually practicing the lifestyle. We do not have to justify anything. “We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream . . . we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.” ~~ O'Shaughnessy (and Willy Wonka!)

We are not antagonists or define ourselves by debating as "anti-" anything. We believe in "life ...well lived", and perhaps do plea for objective rationalization and reason when it comes to theistic religions. If you want to learn more of Atheism, Epicureanism, Hedonism, Humanism, or Satanism, you read their websites or books. They are their own best source for explaining and describing who and what they are, what they do. We claim the same for ourselves.

Isn't it great that you don't have to agree with us? That's the beauty of free will and choice. We do not recruit. We don't proselytize. We are not going to threaten never ending hellfire and damnation if you click that red X. We go our way and you go yours. We simply enjoy our vital lives to the fullest, and surprising or rude as it may sound, we won't be losing sleep over what you or others might think.
Our roots are firmly dug into the deeply buried soils of Democritus. We know our history and where we came from. If you want to understand the historical concept of rational hedonism, the information is out there.

"Let me clarify more. Tomorrow you may not believe in rational hedonism - so you may not remain as a rational hedonist."

The key word I see you having problems with is, "believe". There is a difference between belief and natural inclination. No god is going to open your eyes to enlightenment here, no clergy is going to counsel, teach, or pray with you for understanding. You either are; or can not overcome deeply ingrained beliefs and/or guilt. Therefore, by saying tomorrow one may not "believe" is akin to the proverbial leopard changing his spots; one can not simply change one's nature and disposition.

It's not the same as being influenced or changing your mind. For example: He was raised a Catholic, but he quit believing in confession, sprinkling or the infallibly of the pope, so now he's a Baptist.... oh wait, he suddenly believes in speaking in tongues, now he's with the Assemblies of God.

Rational Hedonism is as simple as it sounds; understanding what makes you happy and seeking out particular pleasures for your life, tempered with intelligent rationalizing and wisdom. You do not squelch the inner characteristics of a Rational Hedonist.

" But the concept will remain. The group of rational hedonists include all those people who believe in this theory even without your knowledge. Similarly, the concept will remain even if nobody believes in this theory."

Again, you use the term “rational hedonist” as a vague concept, while Rational Hedonists are more definitive. There is a difference. Long before writing was created; before the dawning of the Hellenistic civilization and leisure time evolved to afford those ancient philosophers the opportunity to hammer out details of this even-then recognized aspect of human nature. Aristippus and Epicurus, for example, were Rational Hedonists. The “concepts” came from trying to define who they already were. They didn't pull it from the air and define it, then decide that's how they were going to live their lives. And again there is a difference between “belief” and indulging in the freedom of actively living life to the fullest.

If, many generations in the future, civilization lost it's records and history ... the concept and definition dead and forgotten in human memory - without being taught, without name or title, there will still be Rational Hedonists; creative, independent, indulging in the good life, truly free thinkers who stand out and apart from the crowd

Your comment will be posted after it is approved.